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Author Topic: GRAEF system or RETO system for events  (Read 6094 times)

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Offline Antonescu

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GRAEF system or RETO system for events
« on: January 19, 2009, 06:46:40 PM »
Well we all know the GRAEF system in one form or another. It is the most common used for events for judging, etc. We see the judges, they keep track of certain objectives and items for authenticity which are base on points. There are objectives with point values as well. How do most of you feel about the use of this system to use at events? Pro's and Con's.

Have been looking at the RETO system created out in the Midwest. It seems to have less role of judges in the outcome of the battle but there to only interpret rules when needed. Seems to have less of them as well. It requires patrols to be sent out to collect objectives to be returned to Command Post and the CP accumulates points there. This is from the RETO rules: for reenactors that enjoy working with strategic goals, imposed tactical moral check, chain of command, sense of urgency, and some cap busting thrown in!  Inspired by the GRAEF system, there are points awarded as objectives are collected.  Unlike the GRAEF system, there is very little subjectivity and umpires have little influence on the actual score.  The umpires are there to keep things moving and to interpret rule situations.  I havent' seen too much of this system here in this area. What are the pro's and con's of this system?

Seems that with these two maybe since on is based on the GRAEF system it might be worth it to try the RETO at a few events then do a comparision. What do you think?
"Those who forget the past are condemned to relive it" George Santayana (1863-1952)
4th SS Polizei Division http://www.wwiilha.com/4thssmain.html
318th, 80th ID AEF http://www.hardscrabblefarm.com/80th/

Offline Huntar

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Re: GRAEF system or RETO system for events
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2009, 07:14:23 PM »
I would try it. I liked the judging at Newville.

Smaller objectives that come up during all times of the day would be pretty neat. Being in the meat grinder after one single objective limits the creativeness and the options open to either side. Creating smaller objectives unknown at the beginning keeps all forces on their toes and gives the less numerous side a chance to win.

Perhaps a large HQ objective for each side with smaller objectives popping up throughout the day. An HQ capture would mean mega points but would be extremely hard to do. The smaller objectives would be the way to gain points in the event an HQ capture isn't possible or if one side is able to get all the smaller objectives but the other side gets an HQ capture, it should even out.

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Re: GRAEF system or RETO system for events
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2009, 07:14:23 PM »
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Offline Antonescu

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Re: GRAEF system or RETO system for events
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2009, 09:53:01 PM »
It seems that RETO alone with no combination of the GRAEF system might be worth a try. Judges do not have to worry about points, etc. just ensuring the flow continues and only interpret the rules when needed. Objective points are returned to the CP where they accumulate during the course of the tactical. Here are the rules of RETO as the most recent update. Read them and give your opinion. Would this be better than the GRAEF system? Had to post it here due to upload folder being full according to message.

Rules of Engagement for Tactical Objectives (RETO)

Forward
      The ?Rules of Engagement for Tactical Objectives? (RETO) system was developed by Alan Miltich of the WW2 Historical Reenactment Society's 5th SS "Wiking" Panzer Pionier unit (Wiking.org).  This system was inspired by the memories of a small, early morning tactical engagement that took place before a Sunday public event in May, 2002.
      In that pickup battle, the outnumbered Germans were required to recover a case of Norwegian "Heavy Water" and keep the searching Allied units from finding it.  The Germans found the Heavy Water but failed to keep it secure, and the sense of urgency, purpose and suspense of that short tactical was memorable.  It was a silly little scenario at the time, but in many ways was more entertaining than the typical 'scenario' that most battle planners feel obligated to provide.
      This new system is for reenactors that enjoy working with strategic goals, imposed tactical moral check, chain of command, sense of urgency, and some cap busting thrown in!  Inspired by the GRAEF system, there are points awarded as objectives are collected.  Unlike the GRAEF system, there is very little subjectivity and umpires have little influence on the actual score.  The umpires are there to keep things moving and to interpret rule situations.  The 'winning' side is known within 30 minutes after the event has concluded!
      The "Rules of Engagement" (RETO) may seem complicated at first, but after your first patrol it becomes quite natural.

RULES OF ENGAGEMENT

Object   - The object is to accumulate as many desirable Tactical Objectives (TO) at your Command Post (CP) using active Patrols before time elapses.   TOs can be large ammo boxes, fuel cans, signs, even vehicles, virtually anything that is man-made.  Each TO is marked with a large tag indicating the Nationality (or ?EITHER SIDE?), the points, and if there are any special conditions.  Make sure to read and understand the tag before moving the TO!!  These TOs must physically be returned to the CP by Patrols or Runners to count for points.  Only the TOs stockpiled at the CP when time expires count for points.  Generally, the larger and/or farther away the TO is located the more points it is worth.  TO points can vary from 10 to 50 points per item.  NOTE: TOs for the opposite side cannot be moved by an adversary unless the TO is abandoned in combat or stockpiled at a captured Command Post.

Casualties and Resurrection (general) ? this is done on the honor system and is indicated by removing your headgear until you are Resurrected (the act of ?coming back to life?) and brought back to life.   ?Hollywood? hits are encouraged.  Stay put as a casualty, or move behind the tactical action and stay OUT OF THE WAY of the ongoing engagement.  The method of Resurrection can differ if you are defending a CP or out on Patrol.  While you are a casualty, remember to keep the tactical in mind and do not interfere. 
If you have shot at an opponent that did not notice your muzzle flash, get his attention and point your finger at him (no, not THAT finger) to communicate that he was your target and use a cutthroat motion.  Likewise, if you see an opponent pointing at you shortly after the report of a weapon being fired, you know that you were the target and please take appropriate action.  Do not call out hits.
Grenades and firearm hits must involve the successful use of the weapon, not just pointing, saying ?BANG? or throwing inanimate objects (unless fire prevention rules are announced beforehand).  Grenades should have an approximate nine foot radius of effectiveness, mortar rounds should be approximately fifteen foot radius, depending on entrenchment level of the defender.   

Safety:  If you are within twenty feet of a target, fire your weapon well into the air so as not to be aiming directly at the target, then indicate your ?hit? by pointing him out.  Please be mindful of the ears of your fellow soldiers before firing your weapon at too close of proximity.

Command Post ? Each side begins with at least one Command Post (CP).  The Command Post is where all troops begin the battle.  Troops at a CP are under the command of a designated CO and/or Exec-CO.  NOTE:  The CO and Exec-CO are EXEMPT from all Patrol restrictions except Resurrection and are given free movement on the battlefield from CP to Patrol and back again if they wish.  All TOs must be stockpiled in the open and not concealed at the CP to count for points at the end of the engagement.  A captured CP can lose any two TOs at the attacker?s discretion, but those TOs must be taken to the attacker?s CP to count for their points.  Special conditions may apply to defending the CP in the last 30 minutes of the engagement.  Troops are either deployed defending a CP, out on Patrol, returning as a Runner, or returning from a Patrol.  Casualties that are unable to Resurrect in the field must return to an uncontested CP where Resurrection is automatic.

Command Post Casualties ? Once a CP is under attack, casualties can no longer automatically Resurrect there.  Defender casualties of a CP must remove their helmet and stay out of the line of sight of attackers.  CP casualties that remain where they have died automatically resurrect after 15 minutes (no cheating!) unless the wave of attackers has passed them by.  CP casualties that may desire to be resurrected sooner must vacate the CP and retire at least 70 yards from the CP center.  At this casualty collection point, the casualties may be Resurrected by being tagged by a surviving member of the CP, being tagged by a member of a returning Patrol, or after the CP has been vacated by the enemy for 5 minutes. 

Patrols - The act of leaving the CP for a mission of reconnaissance, attack, TO recovery or any mission the COs deem necessary.  Patrols should be sent out for extended missions only sparingly, lest the CO will lose the ability to adjust tactics depending on the situation.  The smallest unit size to be sent out of the CP on a patrol mission will be 1/7 of the total force, or 3 (three), whichever is greater, with a maximum requirement of 10 (ten).  Any Patrol can split into smaller patrols to achieve their mission. 
A single soldier may be dispatched from a Patrol as a Runner or to move a TO to a CP, but he MUST go directly to the CP.  A Runner is not a Patrol and cannot Resurrect anyone.  A tactical maneuver is allowed if enemy forces are directly in the way, but the general movement of the individual must be that to return safely to the CP without intentionally engaging enemy forces.  NOTE:  Roaming individuals are not only discouraged, they will be escorted to a CP with a warning, then removal from the field with a second offense.

The minimum Patrol size is 3 individuals with one exception:  If a 3 person Patrol wishes to send an individual back to the CP with a TO as a Runner, then the resulting two member Patrol can no longer move toward the enemy, only parallel or withdraw towards a friendly CP.  A two member Patrol cannot Resurrect in the field.  If they are split up or either becomes a casualty, the survivor by definition becomes a Runner, and they must immediately return to the CP or be Resurrected by a friendly Patrol with at least 3 members. 




Patrol Casualties and Resurrection - Single shots from 50 yards and farther distance should result in a tactical response by the defender, but not necessarily a casualty.  ?Hollywood? deaths are encouraged.  Remove your helmet and stay out of the way of the ongoing tactical!  During the firefight, Patrol casualties can only become Resurrected if casualties withdraw a minimum of 50 yards and a survivor disengages from the firefight to ?tag? and rally the casualties back to ?life?.  The Resurrected can immediately resume tactical maneuver.
Keep in mind that if a Patrol is reduced to a single soldier during combat, that survivor is by definition a Runner and cannot Resurrect anyone, only return to a CP with any TOs he can manage.  This casualty system is to discourage ?fight to the last man? mentality.  Anyone that finds themselves isolated and detached from their Patrol in the field due to any reason becomes a Runner and must return to a CP or be absorbed by a friendly Patrol.

If the engaged Patrol is totally destroyed, they MUST return to the CP for Resurrection and must abandon any TO they have in their possession.  Abandoned TOs can be captured by either side, regardless of nationality!  If the returning destroyed Patrol encounters a friendly Patrol, they can be Resurrected at that time.  Again, a unit cannot Resurrect with only one survivor, but if the survivor, now a Runner, has any TO, he can attempt to get it to the CP. 
If one Patrol destroys another, and the victorious Patrol has intentions to attack the defender?s CP, they must inform the destroyed Patrol of their intentions.  Once informed, the destroyed Patrol may not interfere until the attacker has had to reform and Resurrect at least once.  The destroyed Patrol must stay at least 70 yards from the attack on the CP awaiting their own Resurrection by another patrol or defender of the CP.  If the attacking Patrol withdraws, the destroyed Patrol can then return to their CP for resurrection.  All casualties that are unable to Resurrect in the field must return to their uncontested CP where Resurrection is automatic, unless it is under assault. 

Capturing an enemy CP ? If a CP is captured, it can no longer Resurrect friendly forces.  The victorious forces must hold the CP for 10 uncontested minutes.  After 10 minutes of control they must withdraw and return directly to their CP to make a report.  They are allowed to take with them any two TOs that had been stockpiled as ?war booty?.  Five minutes after the withdrawal of enemy forces, the CP returns to its original state and any casualties may immediately Resurrect there.  Other enemy Patrols must wait an additional five minutes after a CP?s reactivation before initiating a new assault. 
If a CP is captured in the last 30 minutes of the day?s engagement, the attackers may take the option of trying to maintain control of the CP until the end of the time limit.  While defending, they must Resurrect the same way as if it was a friendly CP.  If an attacking force controls an enemy CP at the end of the time limit, they can deny the points of any two TOs stockpiled, even though they will be unable to return them to their own CP for points. 

When Time Expires -  To determine the winner, simply add up the points stockpiled in the various CPs.  TOs enroute do not count, only those TOs that are physically in the stockpile location count as points.

Adopted March 1, 2006



"Those who forget the past are condemned to relive it" George Santayana (1863-1952)
4th SS Polizei Division http://www.wwiilha.com/4thssmain.html
318th, 80th ID AEF http://www.hardscrabblefarm.com/80th/

Offline blueridge80

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Re: GRAEF system or RETO system for events
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2009, 08:08:28 PM »
What I find annoying is that in any system people will work the system versus working the problem.  Case in point; objectives.  I have been at events where one side is run off every objective but at the end of the day they have 1 or 2 men occupy "objectives" long out of play.  But they get the points.  So, the side that can not fend for itself wins.  I hate seeing that.

What can be done?  First list one or more definable "military" objectives.  Not spare parts for rockets or Hitler's underwear (yeah I saw that).  An honest to God objective that any military would prototypically see as an objective.  Then have those objectives in play only at certain times.  That way each opposing force will be converging on the same objective.  Once the time hack has expired then it's onto the next objective.

I really think some good old common sense would do wonders and weed out the weaklings or incompetent.


RK
"You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go."

Siegfried Sassoon
Suicide in the Trenches
1917

Offline Antonescu

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Re: GRAEF system or RETO system for events
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2009, 06:38:36 AM »
I think the RETO system would be best for events with 200 or less reenactors present. The TO's could be military objectives. For example, looking at map hill 4 dominates an area. Make it the target for 2 hours and having to winning side take the TO points back to the CP via a runner while the rest move on to the next objective which could be a crossroads at another location. Could even have two objectives active during the same time period so that CO's would have to make decisions on what to do with their forces and resources available. Of course having objectives such as a lost briefcase would be secondary and stupid ones like the Hitlers underwear shouldn't be used.
"Those who forget the past are condemned to relive it" George Santayana (1863-1952)
4th SS Polizei Division http://www.wwiilha.com/4thssmain.html
318th, 80th ID AEF http://www.hardscrabblefarm.com/80th/

Offline Antonescu

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Re: GRAEF system or RETO system for events
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2009, 08:52:16 AM »
There are some benefits to RETO, can utilize true military objectives with a time frame to hold the objective then to take the points back to the CP. Think events like Goshen and Haydenville would be good to try it out.
"Those who forget the past are condemned to relive it" George Santayana (1863-1952)
4th SS Polizei Division http://www.wwiilha.com/4thssmain.html
318th, 80th ID AEF http://www.hardscrabblefarm.com/80th/

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Re: GRAEF system or RETO system for events
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2009, 08:52:16 AM »
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